It feels like you are using a lot of OOC knowledge in order to give Czes an edge in the game. One of the main examples being the questions asked of the moderators during various question-time. Said knowledge gained isn't something that Czes would ICly be looking for so it feels like you break the character in order to achieve an OOC goal.
If we compare Czes to the OVA, Rail Tracer is not an immortal being but is just an odd human being yet Czes immediately runs from him in fear rather than attempt to gain any upper hand on him. In the same sense, if we apply it to the Box, he's trying to gain an upper hand on the Technicians but they're on the same level as Rail Tracer. So I do not understand his IC motivations and can only attribute them to OOC motivations.
There are all things that we as players would like our characters to do, but without proper set-up and reasoning behind it; there's no reason for it. There's nothing in what Czes is doing, has said, has done, to make it seem like he should be doing anything other than surviving. He's an immortal but in the body of a little boy. There's very little reason he should have to push his luck, because he never tries to push his luck in the series. There's in no development seen in the Box to show why he has suddenly decides to take chances.
This isn't saying that you should stop trying to take chances or find a way for Czes to contribute, but rather, slow down and actually have build up and IC reasons for why he's doing what he's doing. Think it out because it comes off as pure player motivation rather than character motivation.
First off, I'd like to thank you very much for laying out detailed concrit. I'll just say outright that I'm assuming you're one of the mods, both due to your concerns and due to the delays in mod replies to my plotting questions. If this assumption is wrong, I'm sorry for presuming, and you can correct me at any time.
I'll expand first on Czeslaw's canon behavior, since you're right that it's relevant. In both the anime and novels, Czes is definitely physically weak and capable of being intimidated. His backstory includes years of torture and he reacts badly to being kept in a position of helplessness. On the train, the Rail Tracer first scares him with promises of "the unknown", and then provides a demonstration, with tortures described in Czes' narrative as worse than anything he'd previously experienced. Thereafter, Czes is terrified of Claire and reacts to his presence by screaming and running-- emotionally reduced to the terrified, helpless kid he's been before.
All of this is accurate, and I've worked to keep Czes' reactions to immediate demonstrations of power consistent throughout the game. He's run and cowered from both monsters and PCs. When Claire himself showed up, Czes tried desperately to avoid him. But the technicians have been largely a distant enemy, and when Czes has seen them, they've come across as normal (selfish) humans who have amazing resources. None of this is either unknown or particularly scary. And his canon reaction to a distant threat is noticeably different.
In both the anime and novels, Czes tries not just to gain an upper hand, but to permanently destroy everyone who poses a danger to him or his secrets. He practices alchemy, makes explosives, and researches the formula for immortality. He forms contacts in the military and with criminal organizations both locally and internationally. Before his redemptive moments, he plans to consume every immortal (and possibly every human) in the world, and as soon as Szilard is out of the way he gets started. While Czes won't win any open fights, he's confident in his ability to succeed by subterfuge and proxies, and takes chances that could get him devoured as a result. He tries to hire a mass murderer and blow up the train, and when that fails, he still stays to learn who to kill later. When first confronted by the Rail Tracer, Czes lies, sneers, and attempts murder. While Claire reverses that specific situation drastically, Czes is injured and killed by others throughout the series without caring or reacting much at all.
Czes has been in the Box for almost two years now. He's experienced harm, but nothing even approaching Claire's level, or Fermet's. He's also been accepted and cared about for the first time since he became immortal. Honestly, the last two years of game time have been some of the most positive in the kid's life, and he's developed plenty. But in canon or otherwise, Czes isn't a passive character. His defining villainous actions are pre-emptive murder efforts, and he calculates and attempts schemes more than nearly any character in the series. Particularly when stuck in a situation he sees as hazardous to himself or those he values.
You say I'm using OOC knowledge. If you can clarify the specifics, I'd be glad to supply threads or explanations. If the issue is more with your above concerns that I'm misplaying Czes, I hope this alleviates some of those. The impression I'm getting, both from this and other interactions, is that my attempts to involve Czes in the metaplot as an active participant are unwanted-- whether due to the way I've done it, your perception of the character, or something else entirely. I respect that you mods are doing a lot of work to manage a very complicated game, and I can see where characters trying to color outside the lines may be a hassle. If that's the problem, I have no issue backing off or working out something different. But I would very much appreciate it if you could reply soon and let me know.
You are wrong to assume that I am a mod, because I am not a mod. Delays in plotting questions happen, and the concerns are due to behavior even before the present questions going on now. It is a constant thing that is making it awkward as players to ask any questions to the moderators because giving any sort of information to us that we could use in our build-up or process to figuring out the game could have you try to use it to for one big gambit with Czes and ruin whatever we are presently attempting to be doing. Like I said, I don't mind the idea of you attempting to try to do something, but they are always one giant action without any build-up or even lengthy process to it.
As you said, Czes is a physically weak boy.
If that how Czes sees the Technicians is just "selfish human beings with extraordinary resources" after everything that they have done and everything that they have at their disposal and believes them to be a distant threat despite the fact that they are a constant presence in the game, that really sounds like player motivation and ignoring the state of the game just to make Czes's actions right.
If you would like an example, Czes worked to create a bomb and attempted to find pieces while they were trapped in the Box. At that time, it had been established that there was no idea where the source of the force-field was, or location of the Technicians, or if that location was even in the closed off area. While you say that he builds them, he builds them with a specific purpose in mind with them. It appeared to an outsider point of view, just building it to have it rather than having a reason for it.
This has nothing to do about "coloring outside the lines." This has to do with as a player, you lack any process and for a character like Czes, process is part of who he is. He should have weeks of planning and construction, etc. to what he wants to do, but every time, it is one big move from him. You lack OOC patience and it reflects ICly. There is nothing wrong with attempting to have your character do something, but again, Czes is a little boy and what you are having him do is outside his scope of abilities with what he currently has available to him. That does not mean that he won't have them, if you actually work on having them.
All right. As promised, I apologize for assuming you were a mod. I thought that strictly due to the timing coincidence, and because I could imagine the mods having some difficulty in their current situation. No offense was meant to your status as a player, and I'll consider your responses as such.
Our perspectives on Czes as a character seem to differ a lot, and to be completely honest, I'm not sure how much discussion is going to help. You're ascribing OOC goals as the deciding factor for how I play him, and with that kind of assumption, any reasons I give will (and seem to) be taken as an excuse. But your main complaint is a lack of background, and I can provide some of that if it would help.
Czes arrived in October 2013. He began searching for explosive materials the first month he was there, and has been building, selling, and using his bomb formula ever since. His motivations through the years have changed a little-- initially, he was under the impression test subjects killing each other might force a response from their captors. After learning about the clones and purpose of the Box, that plan became useless and he started trading instead for personal profit and to build contacts who would owe him favors. In canon, as in the Box, Czes is an alchemist who specializes in explosives, and has developed formulas more powerful and stable than any conventional explosives in his time. Examples of his bomb sales can be found in several posts (123456, to pick a few).
While Czes had no idea what the barrier's source might be until recently, and certainly no way to even consider destroying it, he's shown interest in the question before. As early as January of 2014, he talked with Loki about how it might be involved with the technicians' rituals-- and how it might be powered or disrupted (7). Later in the same year, when the barrier first became permeable from the outside, he investigated the tree that fell through it (8). He spent months studying it after (9, 10), and more recently considered the merits of dying in lava repeatedly if it would get him out (11). Czes has been focused on escape since the start of the game, and the barrier is the obvious problem keeping him from that.
Czeslaw's abilities stem from centuries of alchemical practice, and his resources have been gathered over the last two years. A full list of his current inventory can be found here. All of it was requested in resource posts. A lot of your criticism seems to stem from the assumption that I haven't played him long or put in work, and while you're entitled to say so, I'm not sure how much you know about what Czes has or hasn't done over the last few years. This isn't meant as criticism, just acknowledgement of the difficulty; Czes has tagged into more logs than any active character in the game, and I wouldn't expect you to have read them all. While you may not feel I play the character well, I have been very careful to build up his supplies and knowledge every step of the way.
The last point of ICness to address is the technicians. While I certainly won't dispute that they've shown control over vast resources, Czes has never been directly harmed by a technician. He's never been tortured by their hands. He's never seen any sign that they are anything other than fallible humans who've spent decades hiding from the people they hurt. This train event is the first time in the history of the game that the technicians have confronted player characters without a barrier to keep them safe, so yes, he sees them as both distant and vulnerable. Claire viscerally proved himself to be a terrifying monster. The technicians, Czes sees as more similar to himself.
I'm not going to reply to what you've said about me OOCly, since while it's upsetting, it's not especially relevant to Czes. However, I am sorry that I've come off as some kind of overbearing plot stealer. I'm more sorry that you don't feel like you could tell me to stay out of your plots. The last thing I wanted to do was limit other people's options, and while I realize you likely don't want to un-anon yourself (and I'm not asking you to), if you or anyone else puts forth an idea that Czes' efforts could damage, I'd be glad to work with you to avoid that. When it comes down to it, though, the metaplot is a game-wide thing, and your view that Czes isn't the sort to involve himself is one I respectfully disagree with. I hope this background helps make that seem more reasonable, even if our character interpretations aren't the same.
I'm certain that you'll do whatever you think is right and continue to ignore general criticism about your behavior as a player and in-game behavior. As you're already showing that you do not seem to want to change anything that you are doing.
It does not alleviate any issues that I have with you, unfortunately. But you already knew that you were going to just be feeling like you are giving excuses. So we're at an impasse. You don't think you're doing anything wrong, and you don't intend to change.
So, there's no point to do anything else on either of our parts.
I'm sorry we couldn't reach an accord. When you'd laid out so much concern first about Czes' behavior not matching canon and then about it having no basis, I hoped that discussing the canon and in-game foundations might be constructive for us both. That's clearly not the case. I admit to some confusion why you'd say all of those things if you didn't care about them after all, but when it comes down to it, I suppose that's not what matters.
What is important is that you feel uncomfortable as a result of my actions. If there's anything I can do to make things less awkward for you, please feel free to approach me again. As above, I'm willing to work around your or others' ideas. I can exclude him from your plots or try to tailor the effect of his own actions on you. I can alter my own ooc behavior within reasonable boundaries. But you're correct that I'm not willing to downgrade Czes to "just surviving" in the game rather than being a participant in its story. Not as a result of this.
You've leveled a lot of accusations about my character's OOCness and about my impatient, lazy play style. But you've also told me repeatedly there's nothing wrong with a character trying to take actions in the metaplot when they have the position and motive to do so. I agree, and after two years of maneuvering under a constant threat, I feel this applies to Czes.
Thank you for voicing your disagreement. Thank you for highlighting concerns for me to be more careful of from here on out. Whatever your issues with me, I'm grateful for your courage in speaking up, and I won't forget anything you've said.
I hope your own plots prove rewarding.
Edited (correcting two typos; "about first about" and "discussing of the canon") Date: 2015-06-28 01:28 pm (UTC)
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carisma_sensei
no subject
Date: 2015-06-26 06:49 am (UTC)If we compare Czes to the OVA, Rail Tracer is not an immortal being but is just an odd human being yet Czes immediately runs from him in fear rather than attempt to gain any upper hand on him. In the same sense, if we apply it to the Box, he's trying to gain an upper hand on the Technicians but they're on the same level as Rail Tracer. So I do not understand his IC motivations and can only attribute them to OOC motivations.
There are all things that we as players would like our characters to do, but without proper set-up and reasoning behind it; there's no reason for it. There's nothing in what Czes is doing, has said, has done, to make it seem like he should be doing anything other than surviving. He's an immortal but in the body of a little boy. There's very little reason he should have to push his luck, because he never tries to push his luck in the series. There's in no development seen in the Box to show why he has suddenly decides to take chances.
This isn't saying that you should stop trying to take chances or find a way for Czes to contribute, but rather, slow down and actually have build up and IC reasons for why he's doing what he's doing. Think it out because it comes off as pure player motivation rather than character motivation.
no subject
Date: 2015-06-26 09:49 am (UTC)I'll expand first on Czeslaw's canon behavior, since you're right that it's relevant. In both the anime and novels, Czes is definitely physically weak and capable of being intimidated. His backstory includes years of torture and he reacts badly to being kept in a position of helplessness. On the train, the Rail Tracer first scares him with promises of "the unknown", and then provides a demonstration, with tortures described in Czes' narrative as worse than anything he'd previously experienced. Thereafter, Czes is terrified of Claire and reacts to his presence by screaming and running-- emotionally reduced to the terrified, helpless kid he's been before.
All of this is accurate, and I've worked to keep Czes' reactions to immediate demonstrations of power consistent throughout the game. He's run and cowered from both monsters and PCs. When Claire himself showed up, Czes tried desperately to avoid him. But the technicians have been largely a distant enemy, and when Czes has seen them, they've come across as normal (selfish) humans who have amazing resources. None of this is either unknown or particularly scary. And his canon reaction to a distant threat is noticeably different.
In both the anime and novels, Czes tries not just to gain an upper hand, but to permanently destroy everyone who poses a danger to him or his secrets. He practices alchemy, makes explosives, and researches the formula for immortality. He forms contacts in the military and with criminal organizations both locally and internationally. Before his redemptive moments, he plans to consume every immortal (and possibly every human) in the world, and as soon as Szilard is out of the way he gets started. While Czes won't win any open fights, he's confident in his ability to succeed by subterfuge and proxies, and takes chances that could get him devoured as a result. He tries to hire a mass murderer and blow up the train, and when that fails, he still stays to learn who to kill later. When first confronted by the Rail Tracer, Czes lies, sneers, and attempts murder. While Claire reverses that specific situation drastically, Czes is injured and killed by others throughout the series without caring or reacting much at all.
Czes has been in the Box for almost two years now. He's experienced harm, but nothing even approaching Claire's level, or Fermet's. He's also been accepted and cared about for the first time since he became immortal. Honestly, the last two years of game time have been some of the most positive in the kid's life, and he's developed plenty. But in canon or otherwise, Czes isn't a passive character. His defining villainous actions are pre-emptive murder efforts, and he calculates and attempts schemes more than nearly any character in the series. Particularly when stuck in a situation he sees as hazardous to himself or those he values.
You say I'm using OOC knowledge. If you can clarify the specifics, I'd be glad to supply threads or explanations. If the issue is more with your above concerns that I'm misplaying Czes, I hope this alleviates some of those. The impression I'm getting, both from this and other interactions, is that my attempts to involve Czes in the metaplot as an active participant are unwanted-- whether due to the way I've done it, your perception of the character, or something else entirely. I respect that you mods are doing a lot of work to manage a very complicated game, and I can see where characters trying to color outside the lines may be a hassle. If that's the problem, I have no issue backing off or working out something different. But I would very much appreciate it if you could reply soon and let me know.
no subject
Date: 2015-06-27 02:21 am (UTC)As you said, Czes is a physically weak boy.
If that how Czes sees the Technicians is just "selfish human beings with extraordinary resources" after everything that they have done and everything that they have at their disposal and believes them to be a distant threat despite the fact that they are a constant presence in the game, that really sounds like player motivation and ignoring the state of the game just to make Czes's actions right.
If you would like an example, Czes worked to create a bomb and attempted to find pieces while they were trapped in the Box. At that time, it had been established that there was no idea where the source of the force-field was, or location of the Technicians, or if that location was even in the closed off area. While you say that he builds them, he builds them with a specific purpose in mind with them. It appeared to an outsider point of view, just building it to have it rather than having a reason for it.
This has nothing to do about "coloring outside the lines." This has to do with as a player, you lack any process and for a character like Czes, process is part of who he is. He should have weeks of planning and construction, etc. to what he wants to do, but every time, it is one big move from him. You lack OOC patience and it reflects ICly. There is nothing wrong with attempting to have your character do something, but again, Czes is a little boy and what you are having him do is outside his scope of abilities with what he currently has available to him. That does not mean that he won't have them, if you actually work on having them.
no subject
Date: 2015-06-27 09:10 am (UTC)Our perspectives on Czes as a character seem to differ a lot, and to be completely honest, I'm not sure how much discussion is going to help. You're ascribing OOC goals as the deciding factor for how I play him, and with that kind of assumption, any reasons I give will (and seem to) be taken as an excuse. But your main complaint is a lack of background, and I can provide some of that if it would help.
Czes arrived in October 2013. He began searching for explosive materials the first month he was there, and has been building, selling, and using his bomb formula ever since. His motivations through the years have changed a little-- initially, he was under the impression test subjects killing each other might force a response from their captors. After learning about the clones and purpose of the Box, that plan became useless and he started trading instead for personal profit and to build contacts who would owe him favors. In canon, as in the Box, Czes is an alchemist who specializes in explosives, and has developed formulas more powerful and stable than any conventional explosives in his time. Examples of his bomb sales can be found in several posts (1 2 3 4 5 6, to pick a few).
While Czes had no idea what the barrier's source might be until recently, and certainly no way to even consider destroying it, he's shown interest in the question before. As early as January of 2014, he talked with Loki about how it might be involved with the technicians' rituals-- and how it might be powered or disrupted (7). Later in the same year, when the barrier first became permeable from the outside, he investigated the tree that fell through it (8). He spent months studying it after (9, 10), and more recently considered the merits of dying in lava repeatedly if it would get him out (11). Czes has been focused on escape since the start of the game, and the barrier is the obvious problem keeping him from that.
Czeslaw's abilities stem from centuries of alchemical practice, and his resources have been gathered over the last two years. A full list of his current inventory can be found here. All of it was requested in resource posts. A lot of your criticism seems to stem from the assumption that I haven't played him long or put in work, and while you're entitled to say so, I'm not sure how much you know about what Czes has or hasn't done over the last few years. This isn't meant as criticism, just acknowledgement of the difficulty; Czes has tagged into more logs than any active character in the game, and I wouldn't expect you to have read them all. While you may not feel I play the character well, I have been very careful to build up his supplies and knowledge every step of the way.
The last point of ICness to address is the technicians. While I certainly won't dispute that they've shown control over vast resources, Czes has never been directly harmed by a technician. He's never been tortured by their hands. He's never seen any sign that they are anything other than fallible humans who've spent decades hiding from the people they hurt. This train event is the first time in the history of the game that the technicians have confronted player characters without a barrier to keep them safe, so yes, he sees them as both distant and vulnerable. Claire viscerally proved himself to be a terrifying monster. The technicians, Czes sees as more similar to himself.
I'm not going to reply to what you've said about me OOCly, since while it's upsetting, it's not especially relevant to Czes. However, I am sorry that I've come off as some kind of overbearing plot stealer. I'm more sorry that you don't feel like you could tell me to stay out of your plots. The last thing I wanted to do was limit other people's options, and while I realize you likely don't want to un-anon yourself (and I'm not asking you to), if you or anyone else puts forth an idea that Czes' efforts could damage, I'd be glad to work with you to avoid that. When it comes down to it, though, the metaplot is a game-wide thing, and your view that Czes isn't the sort to involve himself is one I respectfully disagree with. I hope this background helps make that seem more reasonable, even if our character interpretations aren't the same.
no subject
Date: 2015-06-28 09:35 am (UTC)It does not alleviate any issues that I have with you, unfortunately. But you already knew that you were going to just be feeling like you are giving excuses. So we're at an impasse. You don't think you're doing anything wrong, and you don't intend to change.
So, there's no point to do anything else on either of our parts.
Bye.
no subject
Date: 2015-06-28 01:22 pm (UTC)What is important is that you feel uncomfortable as a result of my actions. If there's anything I can do to make things less awkward for you, please feel free to approach me again. As above, I'm willing to work around your or others' ideas. I can exclude him from your plots or try to tailor the effect of his own actions on you. I can alter my own ooc behavior within reasonable boundaries. But you're correct that I'm not willing to downgrade Czes to "just surviving" in the game rather than being a participant in its story. Not as a result of this.
You've leveled a lot of accusations about my character's OOCness and about my impatient, lazy play style. But you've also told me repeatedly there's nothing wrong with a character trying to take actions in the metaplot when they have the position and motive to do so. I agree, and after two years of maneuvering under a constant threat, I feel this applies to Czes.
Thank you for voicing your disagreement. Thank you for highlighting concerns for me to be more careful of from here on out. Whatever your issues with me, I'm grateful for your courage in speaking up, and I won't forget anything you've said.
I hope your own plots prove rewarding.